並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E9%9B%B6%E6%8D%8C%E6%AD%90%E5%8C%97%E5%85%B1/ep5-%E4%BE%8D%E5%AF%B5%E8%80%8C%E9%A9%95%E4%BD%A0%E6%98%AF%E7%8B%97%E6%B4%BE%E9%82%84%E6%98%AF%E8%B2%93%E6%B4%BE%E5%AF%B5%E7%89%A9%E6%BA%9D%E9%80%9A%E6%98%AF%E7%9C%9F%E7%9A%84%E5%97%8E-G-mfqzYJRB4/